Mr. Griffin.

was not wearing an overcoat on Friday night, would that in any way affect the positiveness of the identification?

Mr. Mccullough.

Not the overcoat; no. Because, as I say, the only time I looked at this clothing really is as I was coming down, and from the top--what I saw actually was a dark outer coat which I assumed was a topcoat. If I said overcoat, I meant a topcoat.

Mr. Griffin.

Are you certain in your mind that this man did have a topcoat or outer coat on?

Mr. Mccullough.

Yes. I paid it no particular heed at the time, though.

Mr. Griffin.

Well, again, bearing in mind what I have said, that Ruby is not known by anybody else who believes they saw him on Friday night to have been wearing any sort of an outer coat, would that alter the certainty with which you have identified him here today?

Mr. Mccullough.

No. Actually, because the identification--what makes me believe that the man I bumped into and talked to at least for a moment was Ruby was his face, not the clothing.

Mr. Pollak.

I wonder if we could get a fuller description of the hat he was wearing.

Mr. Mccullough.

The hat that I have called a porkpie hat is a hat with a fiat top rather than with the crease that you usually find in a felt hat. It was made of--well, for want of a better word I will use a hairy material, rather than the soft felt material.

Mr. Griffin.

Is that a characteristic of this man's clothing that is firmly impressed on your mind as his face?

Mr. Mccullough.

Yes; yes. Because there, again, as I say, I took a look at him as I was coming down, and the fact that there was no crease, and it was not the usual type of felt hat did stick in my mind, even before I saw his face.

Mr. Griffin.

You indicated earlier that the hat that you believed Ruby was wearing when he shot Oswald was a different kind of hat from the one you saw on Friday night.

Mr. Mccullough.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Have you ever actually seen the hat that Ruby was wearing on Sunday?

Mr. Mccullough.

No; just from my view, there again, that I had in the garage at the time of the shooting. I have never actually seen the hat to examine it as such.

Mr. Pollak.

Could we ask Mr. McCullough about the movements the man actually made who did shoot Oswald?

Mr. Griffin.

I wasn't going to ask him the question, because we have the films. But if you have a question, Mr. Pollak, go ahead and ask him.

Mr. Pollak.

You did observe Ruby step forward and shoot Oswald?

Mr. Mccullough.

Yes; I saw a man in effect move out of the line of people along the ramp, and, frankly, at first I thought he was a photographer who was disobeying the instructions against any movement. And then I saw his arm come up, and I momentarily wondered whether he was going to try to shake hands with someone there. Then I saw the flash of metal in his hand--there, again, under these tremendously bright lights. And I saw, or heard the shot, heard a shot, saw a flash of flame against Oswald's sweater. And then there was complete confusion in the garage area. There were policemen actually throwing themselves, sliding along the tops of the parked automobiles to get at the scene of this melee that was underway there.

Mr. Pollak.

Could you tell us, Mr. McCullough, where this man, Ruby, was in the garage when he first came to your attention?

Mr. Mccullough.

Well, the first time I noticed him at all is when he detached himself from the crowd, in other words when he walked forward from the crowd along the ramp.

Mr. Pollak.

You did not see him, observe him moving into that crowd at any time?

Mr. Mccullough.

Not, not at all. The first time I noticed him was when he moved toward the two police officers and Oswald, who was between the two officers. And I did hear someone call out--the exact words were, "Jack, Jack, you son-of-a-bitch? -And some other reporters said that they thought it came