Mr. Griffin.

I might ask you right now then if you recall what--generally what were the contents of these various tapes which you gave the FBI?

Mr. Pappas.

I gave them only one tape--the tape in the hallway, and the actual shooting of Oswald by Ruby. It was all on one reel.

Mr. Griffin.

After Oswald got past you up there on the third floor, what did you do?

Mr. Pappas.

I went down to the basement.

Mr. Griffin.

Ran down the stairs?

Mr. Pappas.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

And about how long before Oswald emerged from the jail office was it that you arrived down there in the basement?

Mr. Pappas.

Roughly a minute.

Mr. Griffin.

And what did you see happen as Oswald came out?

Mr. Pappas.

Oswald came out. There were two detectives on either side of him. Captain Fritz was leading the way. There were other detectives behind him. Detectives behind, both walls from the exit to the Jail, the basement walls. Oswald came right past me, and I did as many of us did throughout those 2 days, I shouted a question at him. And then I noticed a black blur, and I noticed a bang--I heard a bang, rather, I recall a flash, and then pandemonium.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you hear Jack Ruby say anything as he moved toward Oswald?

Mr. Pappas.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you think if he had said something, that you would have heard it?

Mr. Pappas.

It depends on how loudly he said it. If he whispered it, certainly I could not hear it.

Mr. Griffin.

But if he had spoken in a normal voice?

Mr. Pappas.

If he had spoken in a normal voice that would be difficult for me to tell. I could not say if he spoke in a normal voice. If he shouted something at I would say that I could have heard it.

Mr. Griffin.

Well, were you able to hear Oswald's groan or response as he was hit?

Mr. Pappas.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

How did the volume of that response compare to somebody speacking in a normal voice? Was it an extremely loud sold that he made, or don't you have any recollection?

Mr. Pappas.

Well, an extremely loud sound--it is hard for me to estimate what is loud and what is not. It is very vague.

Mr. Griffin.

Well, describe it in your own words.

Mr. Pappas.

It was like an expulsion of air, a gasp. It was audible from where I was. I heard him. If I said it was loud, I don't know whether it would mean anything to you.

Mr. Griffin.

You can make a statement like that and then maybe you can---

Mr. Pappas.

It didn't throw my head back or anything like that. I have been blasted by loud sounds. But this was an audible sound.

Mr. Griffin.

Were other people speaking and shouting at the time?

Mr. Pappas.

At the time of what?

Mr. Griffin.

At the time this gasp came out?

Mr. Pappas.

No. There were people--I imagine there was a slight din. But I noticed distinctly that the shot went off, and there was a cold moment of silence, and then the gasp. It was a very quick split-second thing. But there were these two moans that I heard.

Mr. Griffin.

Of course, I have not listened to the tape yet, and that might answer many of the questions.

Mr. Pappas.

I think that would help a lot.

Mr. Griffin.

But in order---of course, the tape is a result of a microphone, which may or may not pick up evening that the human ear picks up. Maybe we can work into this by my asking you, was this a directional mike or to what extent did the microphone itself that you were using limit the ability of the recording apparatus to pick up the kinds of sounds that the human ear would have heard?