Mr. Specter.

So that whatever ultimate conclusions flow from whether Ruby was psychotic or whether he was in touch with reality are beyond your ken as a polygraph examiner? You merely rely on what the psychiatrist says in formulating your conclusions; is that not so?

Mr. Herndon.

That is correct, Mr. Specter. I would defer to psychiatrists, of course, with regard to whether or not a person is mentally competent or not.

Mr. Specter.

So that if Mr. Ruby was psychotic, then the polygraph examination would have no validity?

Mr. Herndon.

That is correct, sir.

Mr. Specter.

And if, on the other hand, Mr. Ruby was competent and in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and the content of his answers, then the polygraph examination would have validity?

Mr. Herndon.

Under that theory, then the polygraph examination could be interpreted, and there would be a conclusion rendered, still considering, of course, all the limitations of the polygraph technique, of course.

Mr. Specter.

Now, what two areas of questions did Dr. Beavers exclude in the portion of his answer which you and I Just read together?

Mr. Herndon.

Dr. Beavers made specific reference to two questions which were originally drafted by himself, Dr. Beavers. These questions were in regard to whether or not Ruby believed his family were harmed or have been harmed, whether or not his family have been harmed for what he did, and the other question was in regard to whether or not he believed his chief counsel, Mr. Fowler, was in danger for defending him, Ruby, that is.

Mr. Specter.

And as the record will show, those were the two questions that Dr. Beavers referred to where he felt Ruby was out of touch with reality when he answered them during the course of the polygraph examination?

Mr. Herndon.

That is correct.

Mr. Specter.

And focusing for just a moment on those two questions before we proceed to your conclusions, what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question as to whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did?

Mr. Herndon.

During the actual polygraph examination, when that question was asked, Mr. Ruby failed to respond either yes or no.

Mr. Specter.

Is there any portion of the overall examination which precedes the time when the machine is activated and the needles are operating, so to speak?

Mr. Herndon.

Yes. During the pretest interview, the actual question. s are carefully discussed with the examinee, in this case Mr. Ruby, so that he fully understands the intent and the meaning of the questions.

Mr. Specter.

And is that a normal part of a polygraph examination?

Mr. Herndon.

That is a standard procedure in a polygraph interrogation technique.

Mr. Specter.

And what is the purpose for that?

Mr. Herndon.

The purpose of that primarily is to be sure that the examinee fully understands the question and that there are no problems of surprise or semantics. It also psychologically conditions the subject in that he commits himself prior to the test and will be conditioned to know that the question will be asked again and he will have to make a decision as to how he is going to answer it, and whether or not he is going to attempt to deceive.

Mr. Specter.

And what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question about whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did during the course of the preliminary discussion session?

Mr. Herndon.

To be sure; could we just check the transcript on that? believe he did say yes, with regard to that question.

Mr. Specter.

Certainly. Please do check the transcript, or your notes, either way which would be most expeditious. (Pause.) Have you now had an opportunity to check the transcript on that last answer, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. Herndon.

Yes; I have reviewed the transcript, and with regard to both those questions Mr. Ruby replied "Yes."

Mr. Specter.

During which portion of the examination?

Mr. Herndon.

This was during the pretest interview.

Mr. Specter.

When you say he gave "yes" answers to both questions, you mean the question about "did he think his family had been harmed as a result of what