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(Testimony of Bell P. Herndon)
Mr. Specter.
If that diagnosis is accurate, would there be any validity in a polygraph examination of Mr. Ruby?
Mr. Herndon.
There would be no validity to the polygraph examination, and no significance should be placed upon the polygraph charts.
Mr. Specter.
Did you further hear Dr. Beavers testify as follows: "In the greater proportion of the time that he," referring to Ruby, "answered the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an appreciation of reality."
Mr. Herndon.
I heard him so testify.
Mr. Specter.
If Mr. Ruby's mental condition was accurately characterized in that latter statement, then would the polygraph examination have validity in accordance with the limitations which you heretofore described?
Mr. Herndon.
Well, based on the hypothesis that Ruby was mentally competent and sound, the charts could be interpreted, and if those conditions are fact, the charts could be interpreted to indicate that there was no area of deception present with regard to his response to the relevant questions during the polygraph examination. However, I have no specific information to my knowledge which would resolve the hypothesis or the suggestion made by Dr. Beavers that Ruby was in fact rational and fully competent at that time, and, therefore, I would still have to render an inconclusive opinion with regard to the charts.
Mr. Specter.
When you say in your last answer if Ruby was competent or sane, by that do you mean the characteristics which Dr. Beavers described, stated specifically, that he understood the questions and the answers, that he was giving answers based on appreciation of reality?
Mr. Herndon.
I qualified my answer to the previous question because of the fact, if you will recall, Dr. Beavers also testified later that it is entirely possible for a person who is psychotic to still appear to be rational and to be fully aware of reality. This particular testimony is with regard to specific questions presented to Dr. Beavers by Mr. Tonahill, and it is a known fact that certain psychotics at times can appear completely rational and appear to be competent.
Mr. Specter.
The distinction on that, though, would be whether or not they are, in fact, in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and answers, or whether they only appear to be in touch with reality? Would that not be the key distinction that Dr. Beavers is making in his testimony?
Mr. Herndon.
I am not sure I follow you there, Mr. Specter. Will you repeat that again?
Mr. Specter.
Yes. You say that Dr. Beavers said that many psychotics appear to understand the questions or appear to be in touch with reality.
Mr. Herndon.
He said it is possible, I believe, that a psychotic could appear to be rational and have a good memory, but still be a psychotic individual or psychotic personality.
Mr. Specter.
Yes; but wasn't the key distinction that Dr. Beavers was making was whether or not, in fact, the individual did understand the questions as opposed to whether he appeared to understand the questions?
Mr. Herndon.
Yes; I gather from Dr. Beavers' testimony that in this particular instance during this particular phase of the examination with regard to two exceptions which he mentions, Ruby appeared to be fully aware of the intent and the meaning of the question and was rational in his reply.
Mr. Specter.
But didn't he go beyond that, Mr. Herndon, that is he did not use the qualifying term of Mr. Ruby's appearing to be in touch with reality, but said, and I will make the portion of the transcript available to you: "I felt that he was aware of the questions and that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an appreciation of reality."
Now, you have read that along with me. The distinction I am making here is that Dr. Beavers doesn't say here that Mr. Ruby appears to be in touch with reality, but that he, in fact, is, according to Dr. Beavers' conclusion, during the course of this examination, except for two areas which I am going to come to, that Ruby was, in fact, in touch with reality and did understand the nature of the questions and answers.
Mr. Herndon.
I recall he did specifically make that comment.
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