Mr. Hubert.

Did you have any financial dealings with him?

Mr. Ruby.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?

Mr. Ruby.

No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I did, and I'm sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven't located the check as yet. I don't remember whether I sent the check to Jack or Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]

Mr. Hubert.

Did he owe you any money at any time?

Mr. Ruby.

Me?

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.

Mr. Ruby.

Ralph Paul?

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.

Mr. Ruby.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.

Mr. Ruby.

That went through my company, I think.

Mr. Hubert.

Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come to be indebted?

Mr. Ruby.

That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.

Mr. Hubert.

Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?

Mr. Ruby.

I think to organize the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Hubert.

Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?

Mr. Ruby.

I don't recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure, than one amount, that is.

Mr. Hubert.

Tell us about that transaction in general.

Mr. Ruby.

I don't recall. I would have to see---I don't recall when I sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul, that is to say to sue him?

Mr. Ruby.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.

Mr. Ruby.

This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don't recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can't think of the new name, because I was out of the picture then.

Mr. Hubert.

What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Ruby.

I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to send it.

Mr. Hubert.

Suppose we approach it in another way.

Mr. Ruby.

I don't recall the complete details on it.

Mr. Hubert.

Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the organization of a club.

Mr. Ruby.

He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was some other club before.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he tell you then how much he needed?

Mr. Ruby.

I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.

Mr. Hubert.

You mean $6,000?

Mr. Ruby.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a loan?

Mr. Ruby.

I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this----

Mr. Hubert.

You mean the note for the money that you sent down?

Mr. Ruby.

Yes; I think something--I am not sure because it was handled more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.