Mr. Senator.

I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now how personal, I don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman as you were to Jim Martin, for example?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know, but I know that--as a matter of fact, even now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don't know what you want to actually call close. You know I can't tell you what close is.

Mr. Griffin.

How about John Hilt?

Mr. Senator.

I never heard of that name.

Mr. Griffin.

Dick Shepard?

Mr. Senator.

No; I don't know that, either.

Mr. Griffin.

Abe Klinman?

Mr. Senator.

Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he do work for Jack?

Mr. Senator.

He has done some work for Jack.

Mr. Wilson.

Jerry Wilson?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know that name.

Mr. Griffin.

Mike Riaf?

Mr. Senator.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

Tom Palmer's name is on here, but you have talked about that.

Mr. Senator.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Ed Pullman?

Mr. Senator.

Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don't know how to describe it. He is an idea man.

Mr. Griffin.

A promoter?

Mr. Senator.

Things that he makes.

Mr. Griffin.

An inventor?

Mr. Senator.

Yes; in that classification.

Mr. Griffin.

And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?

Mr. Senator.

The only thing is--no; no business dealings. The only thing is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show--you know what I mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look-- exhibits.

Mr. Griffin.

What kind of things did he exhibit?

Mr. Senator.

Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do with them. In other words, he wasn't manufacturing them, but he had already made these things.

Mr. Griffin.

Where was he exhibiting these items?

Mr. Senator.

At a place called Market Hall.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Ed Pullman----

Mr. Senator.

Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying to promote.

Mr. Griffin.

What was that?

Mr. Senator.

This is what they call--what do they call the little thing? It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you get on it and it moves around like this.

Mr. Griffin.

It is a weight reducer, like?

Mr. Senator.

Yes; a twister.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?

Mr. Senator.

It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try and sell them.

Mr. Griffin.

And for a month, what would this month cover, from the 1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of November?

Mr. Senator.

No; it was either September or October, somewheres in there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.

Mr. Griffin.

Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose interest in it, or something?