Mr. Senator.

Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I used to go up there and we stared getting a little more friendly.

Mr. Hubert.

That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?

Mr. Senator.

No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2 1/2 years ago. I used to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they don't let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember actually when that opened?

Mr. Senator.

Which?

Mr. Hubert.

The Sovereign.

Mr. Senator.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the Carousel?

Mr. Senator.

I wasn't around for the change, but I would say that it was years ago. Now Just how much over, I don't know.

Mr. Hubert.

Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or 6 months?

Mr. Senator.

That it changed to the Carousel?

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.

Mr. Senator.

I couldn't quote that. I couldn't even quote it.

Mr. Griffin.

Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?

Mr. Senator.

You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.

Mr. Griffin.

What kind of things?

Mr. Senator.

Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that nature. And when I traveled for him and I'd get back to town, he would knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn't stable with him.

Mr. Griffin.

When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn't have membership in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. Senator.

No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.

Mr. Griffin.

Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?

Mr. Senator.

Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he have striptease performance?

Mr. Senator.

No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Griffin.

Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?

Mr. Senator.

Oh, I knew some of them; yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you visit any of those?

Mr. Senator.

On rare occasions; yes. I couldn't afford them, number one. I was never a member because I couldn't afford membership. I wasn't making that kind of money. But I'd either go up with a friend who was a member or something of that nature.

Mr. Griffin.

Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more attractive to you than some of the other clubs?

Mr. Senator.

No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and Jack like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say "Come on up, be my guest," free admission.