Mr. Hubert.

Ralph had to get him to leave?

Mr. Crafard.

Ralph was sitting right there and he asked the gentleman to leave and he wouldn't do it, and Jack went over there and the gentleman struck Ralph Paul and when he did Jack just pushed his arm down and pushed him out the door.

Mr. Hubert.

He didn't hit him?

Mr. Crafard.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you form any impression about Ralph Paul, as to whether Ralph Paul was a homosexual?

Mr. Crafard.

No; Ralph was a pretty good, decent guy. I liked him, what little I did know of him. I like him. He was kind of a stuffed shirt, but he was a fair, likable guy.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you notice if Jack's club was visited by any people who would appear to you to be homosexuals?

Mr. Crafard.

No; I didn't notice that. I can't recall of any specific people coming in that would appear to be this way.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Jack ever talk to you about sex?

Mr. Crafard.

No; very seldom; one or two occasions when I said something about a girl or something, when I said something about a girl or something.

Mr. Griffin.

What was his interest in his dogs?

Mr. Crafard.

Sheba was the only one that really meant a lot to him. He was like a lot of people who are alone, and get with animals.

Mr. Griffin.

You mean he was attached to them?

Mr. Crafard.

Really attached.

Mr. Griffin.

To Sheba?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he breed Sheba?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes. Sheba had been bred.

Mr. Griffin.

Was this something that he did, or did he send her some place to be bred?

Mr. Crafard.

I believe he took her to another place, another place to be bred; I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin.

Was there anything, any experience you had which indicated he had any sexual interest in these dogs?

Mr. Crafard.

No; I wouldn't say so.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever see him try to sexually stimulate these dogs?

Mr. Crafard.

Not that I ever saw.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever hear anything in that regard?

Mr. Crafard.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

Now the example you gave us about Ruby putting the man out at the club is the only one that you ever perceived as an act of physical violence?

Mr. Crafard.

Where he actually used physical violence. I have seen him where he was close to it at another M.C. at one time. Threatened for him to go out or he would throw him out, which was something which occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.'s.

Mr. Hubert.

Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?

Mr. Crafard.

Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack's just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.

Mr. Hubert.

Jack walked away from that man?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

You never saw him hit anybody?

Mr. Crafard.

No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man's hand and knocked it down.

Mr. Hubert.

Was the comedian bigger than Jack?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes; bigger than Jack.

Mr. Hubert.

Quite a bit bigger?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

How about the patron that he handled?