Mr. Turner.

excitement, going up the exit the wrong way. I mean the entrance the wrong way.

Mr. Hubert.

Going up towards Main Street?

Mr. Turner.

That's right, which was different from the one, because we had always seen them come down it, and that was the first time we noticed them going out of it.

Mr. Hubert.

Did that car have any difficulty going up?

Mr. Turner.

Come to think of it, I think he did. I remember a lot of wheels spinning or something.

Mr. Hubert.

Were there many people there?

Mr. Turner.

There was quite a few. The reporters had come in at that point, somewhere along in that point, and there was getting to be a group of people.

Mr. Hubert.

Anyway, what you are saying is, that the movement of that car attracted your attention, is that correct?

Mr. Turner.

There was some brakes squealing or tires spinning at that time.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you follow with your eyes?

Mr. Turner.

I followed him as far as I could, now, there was some more commotion started a little before that of them bringing a truck in, backing an armored truck in from the exit side of it, which they were having a difficult job of getting this truck in. Now, this all happened--I can't tell you the exact time, because it is all vague in my mind.

Mr. Hubert.

Let's go back to the police car going up the Main Street ramp towards Main Street, did you follow it with your eyes?

Mr. Turner.

I followed it not only to about a point to where the drive had started up, because it was impossible----

Mr. Hubert.

To the point where the ramp starts to go up?

Mr. Turner.

Uphill, the slope up, which was this column here had sort of blocked our view from----

Mr. Hubert.

Mark the column with a number.

Mr. Turner.

That is number "9".

Mr. Hubert.

With a circle.

Mr. Turner.

And, I was standing up at the front of point "4", on the left side of the camera, which was right next to the column. Jack Beers from the Dallas Morning News, who took the picture before he was shot--not the picture after he shot him, was immediately--I was touching him with my left arm, and I had mentioned to Jack, I said, "Jack, when I swing around for them to lead him into the truck up there, well, I'll hit you on the knee, if--and would you get out of the way?"
And Jack said, "Yes." So--this all took place so quick from now on. And then after I got through talking with Jack, I was-- Tom was trying to attract my attention. I happened to glance up and this was at the same time the car drove out of the---I'm not sure. I couldn't--that right down where the ramp it hit--the----

Mr. Hubert.

Level part?

Mr. Turner.

Level part. I saw Mr. Ruby coming in.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, had you ever seen him before?

Mr. Turner.

No, sir; I certainly hadn't. Let me mark "10" as the point where I actually saw Mr. Ruby.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, in order to get it right, would you look at the mockup first, and then place it.

Mr. Turner.

I was right here [indicating], and he was somewhere in this locality when---it is beyond the second column.

Mr. Hubert.

Will you mark a line, and mark it "A" and "B" straight across at the beginning on the right?

Mr. Turner.

All right.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, you have marked a line, having compared it with the mockup, and you have marked it "A-B".

Mr. Turner.

That is the beginning of the----

Mr. Hubert.

Of the rise?

Mr. Turner.

That's right. I might be a little off there.

Mr. Hubert.

Now you say you saw Jack Ruby. You had not known him to be Jack Ruby at that time?