Mr. Liebeler.

Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual relations
between herself and Oswald?

Mrs. Paine.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you testified about that previously?

Mrs. Paine.

No.

Mr. Liebeler.

Would you care to tell us?

Mrs. Paine.

I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual relationship?

Mrs. Paine.

Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or not, and whether she planned to try to.

Mr. Liebeler.

Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if she told you some of those things.

Mrs. Paine.

Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly was not put that way.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with her sexual relations with Oswald?

Mrs. Paine.

Yes; she did.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November?

Mrs. Paine.

She mentioned that she had once left him.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she tell you any of the details of it?

Mrs. Paine.

Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that was said about it.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you?

Mrs. Paine.

Well, that's how I met her.

Mr. Liebeler.

You know De Mohrenschildt yourself?

Mrs. Paine.

I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend between the hosts of the evening party.

Mr. Liebeler.

Mr. Glover?

Mrs. Paine.

And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Paine.

You mean that that might have been to whom she went?

Mr. Liebeler.

I just want to know if she ever discussed De Mohrenschildt with you?

Mrs. Paine.

I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered. She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got that straight as to who was married.

Mr. Liebeler.

She never discussed her own feelings about De Mohrenschildt?