Mr. Jenner.

What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you?

Mr. Pic.

I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather believed my wife rather than my mother.

Mr. Jenner.

Did you speak to Lee about the incident?

Mr. Pic.

I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting thrown out of the house as they put it.
When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was never able to get to the kid again after that. lie didn't care to hear anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere.

Mr. Jenner.

Did you see them from time to time thereafter?

Mr. Pic.

Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there and ask me something about it.

Mr. Jenner.

Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward others?

Mr. Pic.

He was definitely the boss.

Mr. Jenner.

Now, tell us on what you base that?

Mr. Pic.

I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. lie had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got along very well. She always reminded me of this.

Mr. Jenner.

Your wife reminded you of that?

Mr. Pic.

Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee.

Mr. Jenner.

But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in your home, then the attitude changed?

Mr. Pic.

That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner.

Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with Lee been?

Mr. Pic.

Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and spend as much time as I could with him.

Mr. Jenner.

You found him to have he was interested in that sort of thing?

Mr. Pic.

Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, anything like that he liked.

Mr. Jenner.

Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished?

Mr. Pic.

Not until the knife pulling incident.

Mr. Jenner.

And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion?

Mr. Pic.

I attempted to, sir.

Mr. Jenner.

Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time?

Mr. Pic.

Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter.

Mr. Jenner.

He would not.

Mr. Pic.

No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me.

Mr. Jenner.

There was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you?

Mr. Pic.

Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner.

It was a marked one?

Mr. Pic.

That is correct, I have a couple of more incidents in which I can relate that even more so.

Mr. Jenner.

Would you do that?