Mr. Stern.

Is he also an employee?

Mr. Holland.

Yes; he is.

Mr. Stern.

Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time the Presidential motorcade----

Mr. Holland.

Yes.

Mr. Stern.

Came into view?

Mr. HOLLAND. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me why in the world-he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around the fence to what was happening.

Mr. Stern.

Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police officers were on the overpass at the time?

Mr. Holland.

There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that time.

Mr. Stern.

Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time' the Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following employees of the Terminal Co. yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr.Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other man?

Mr. Holland.

That's right.
Mr. STERN. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago, by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I can't remember who it was or their names, because----

Mr. Stern.

Before the motorcade started?

Mr. Holland.

Before the motorcade started.

Mr. Stern.

These were people you recognized as employees?

Mr. HOLLAND. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I think he was asking for credentials.

Mr. Stern.

The uniformed policeman?

Mr. Holland.

Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep them----
Mr. STERN. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being terminal or railroad employees?
Mr. HOLLAND. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose for going up there.
Mr. STERN. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad employees, or as a policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a few came up there right in the last moments.

Mr. Stern.

There were? Tell us about that.

Mr. Holland.

That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their identification, and---

Mr. Stern.

Is this just about the time of the motorcade?
Mr. HOLLAND. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself.

Mr. Stern.

Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the police?

Mr. Holland.

He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass.
Mr. STERN. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman for identification?

Mr. Holland.

I think everyone was checked by some person.
Mr. STERN. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view?

Mr. Holland.

Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 people.

Mr. Stern.

.Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it?

Mr. Holland.

Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail.

Mr. Stern.

Turning right off of Main onto Houston?

Mr. Holland.

It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto Houston.
Mr. STERN. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is where