(Testimony of Winston G. , Accompanied By Fred B. Smith, Lawson)
Mr. Mccloy.
There would be Secret Service men in the Vice Presidential car, and of course there is the Secret Service car that follows the Presidential car, all through the route there are interspersed Secret Service men.
Mr. Dulles.
It must have been the third or fourth or fifth car in the motorcade that was right opposite the window at the time the assassin put the rifle well out of the window and shot.
Mr. Mccloy.
Why do you say that?
Mr. Dulles.
The shooting took place when the President's car was somewhere here (indicating to photograph of scene). It had made the turn, You see. Here is the building. Now there is the window up here roughly. He didn't shoot here. They went around the turn and were down here. There was a barricade there. There was something there that obstructed the view you will remember.
Mr. Mccloy.
That is the sign here like this.
Mr. Dulles.
It would be down that far.
Mr. Mccloy.
It might have been there.
Mr. Dulles.
As close as that? Whatever it was, the car that was right opposite the window and going in this direction at that time must have been the fourth or fifth car--the car which had the best view of the assassination. You wouldn't be looking I shouldn't think, if you were in a car here, you wouldn't be looking back there. You would be looking off here and off here for protection.
I should think that car in this strange situation, where he was shooting right down the street isn't that correct? I don't know if you have ever followed that up. I don't know what car it is. It is some car along here, though, that would have been right opposite the window at the time the shooting took place, not one of the lead cars or the President's car.
Mr. Stern.
By these cars you mean, sir
Mr. Dulles.
In the motorcade. Some of these down here. It might have been even the wire services or the press cars I don't know how many cars but I think from our photographs we ought to be able to identify that.
Representative Ford.
A man named Jackson who was a photographer in one of the cars with photographers is an individual who identified the fact that somebody was in that window with a rifle as I recall.
Mr. Dulles.
He was in one of the press cars was he?
Representative Ford.
Yes.
Mr. Dulles.
The wire service car is the seventh car including the lead police vehicle. Well, the lead car, if you count the lead car, six, the sixth car.
Representative Ford.
He testified as I recall that the car in which he was--was halfway down the block between Main and Elm at the time that he looked up and saw the building and saw people in windows.
Mr. Dulles.
This is Houston and this is Elm. Houston and Elm isn't it, not Main. Main and Elm, or yes.
Representative Ford.
However, the time span between the time that the lead car, the President's car and the followup car came down Houston and turned down Elm is a relatively short period of time.
Mr. Lawson.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Mccloy.
By the way, at what speed were you going as you came around the turn and into Elm Street? You said 7 to 10 downtown. Would it be about the same speed there?
Mr. Lawson.
I imagine it was a little faster at this time, sir, because the downtown section where it was quite heavily populated with people watching the motorcade, we had been out of that for a while before we got to the Houston Street turn. So we were probably back up to perhaps 12 or 15 miles an hour by then.
Mr. Mccloy.
But you would have had to slow up a bit coming around the curve.
Mr. Lawson.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Stern.
Mr. Lawson, can you tell us why you didn't plan the motorcade so that it went straight down Main Street to turn right on to the entrance to the freeway instead of taking this dogleg on Houston and Elm?
Mr. Dulles.
Jerry, will you take over.
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