Mr. Eisenberg.

source that was supplied by the Commission and which is tentative, and it is not to imply any final conclusion on the part of the FBI; is that correct?

Mr. Frazier.

I hope it is taken that way, because we don't know what the time actually was.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Another point then, which should have been covered this morning, Mr. Frazier, in your qualifications: have you testified before in court?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes; I have.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Can you estimate the number of times?

Mr. Frazier.

Approximately 400 times.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Finally, we had discussed briefly your examination of consecutively manufactured bolt faces to see whether any two such consecutively manufactured bolt faces were identical in their microscopic characteristics. How many such examinations have you performed.

Mr. Frazier.

I would say about four examinations of pairs of bolt faces which have been consecutively manufactured.

Mr. Eisenberg.

And in each case the result was what?

Mr. Frazier.

The marks on one bolt face in no way resembled the marks on the other bolt face.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. Frazier, we were just beginning to discuss, before the recess, Commission Exhibit 559, which is a picture, as you described it, of Exhibit No. 543 and a test cartridge under a microscope, and that is also known as C-6 and C-14, is that right?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Could you discuss, by using that picture, some of the markings

which you have seen under the microscope and on the basis of which you made your identification?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir. In the photograph I have drawn some small circles and numbered them, those circles, correspondingly on each side of the photograph. The purpose of the circles is not to point out all the similarities, but to call attention to some of them and to help orient in locating a mark on one with a mark on the opposite side of the photograph. In general the area shown is immediately outside of the firing pin in the bolt of the 139 rifle, on the left side of the photograph, and Commission Exhibit 543 on the right side.
The circles have been drawn around the dents or irregularly shaped ridges, small bumps, and depressions on the surface of the metal in six places on each side of the photograph. It is an examination of these marks, and all of the marks on the face of the breech, microscopically which permits a conclusion to be reached. The photograph itself actually is a substitute to show only the type of marks found rather than their nature, that is, their height, their width, or their relationship to each other, which is actually a mental, visual, comparison on the two specimens themselves.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Referring for a second to this mental, visual, comparison, Mr. Frazier, would a person without firearms training-firearms-identification training--be able to look under a microscope and make a determination for himself concerning whether a given cartridge case had been fired in a given weapon?

Mr. Frazier.

In that connection that person could look through the micro scope. He may or may not see these individual characteristics which are present, because he does not know what to look for in the first place, and, secondly, they are of such a nature that you have to mentally sort them out in your mind going back and forth between one area and the other until you form a mental picture of them in a comparison such as this.
If it was a different type of comparison, of parallel marks or something of that nature, then he could see the marks, but in either instance, without having compared hundreds and hundreds of specimens, he would not be able to make any statement as to whether or not they were fired from the same rifle.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Would you say that this is, then, a matter of expert interpretation rather than a point-for-point comparison which a layman could make?

Mr. Frazier.

I would say so; yes. I don't think a layman would recognize some of the things on these cartridge cases and some shown in the photographs as actually being significant or not significant, because there will be things