He was critical, though, certainly of the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport.

Mr. Dulles.

Was he critical at this latter time?

Mr. Paine.

He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of bastards, wouldn't--or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable.

Mr. Dulles.

But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I misunderstand you on that?

Mr. Paine.

Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his assent to that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United States from Russia?

Mr. Paine.

Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my friendship that way.
However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone there.

Mr. Liebeler.

What did he say?

Mr. Paine.

But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned that he liked to--he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car.
But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization.
Again this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what he was speaking about.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in which he was permitted to shoot a rifle?

Mr. Paine.

No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not like this organization.

Mr. Dulles.

Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything of that kind?

Mr. Paine.

I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he speak of any training that he might have received in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine.

No; he didn't.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine.

No; he did not.

Mr. Liebeler.

He is there anything else he told you about this hunting club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now?

Mr. Paine.

No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting so that I didn't--it was an ideal opportunity--I think he did love hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a somewhat human way.

Mr. Dulles.

You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation?

Mr. Paine.

No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was a paramilitary organization