Mr. Specter.

positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Rowland.

Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was there.

Mr. Specter.

Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. Rowland.

This was 12:15.

Mr. Specter.

All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. Rowland.

We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.
He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.
We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. Specter.

Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. Rowland.

This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.
Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.
It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. Specter.

All right.
Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?
(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter.

What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. Rowland.

To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. Specter.

What extent would that be?

Mr. Rowland.

Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. Specter.

Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. Rowland.

Yes.

Mr. Specter.

In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. Rowland.

It was through the window to my right.

Mr. Specter.

Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.
(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter.

How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?

Mr. Rowland.

All of it.

Mr. Specter.

You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?

Mr. Rowland.

Yes.

731-218 O--vol.II---12