Mr. Kaufman.

was correct, that he considered himself a sacrifice, I just can't believe this, because I would say that if he did do this, Mr. Hubert, I feel, knowing him, that Jack would have taken his money and left it with his sister or left it with his bartender or left it with someone, but I don't believe Jack Ruby would have walked into the jail with his money, and leaving his dogs elsewhere, with the understanding he was going to make a sacrifice out of himself and be caught, because this does not demonstrate to me the actions of a sane person--to walk into a place with your money, with your dogs here, and without any plan of getting away or a plan of getting out of it.

Mr. Hubert.

And you say that's inconsistent of what your estimate of Jack Ruby as a human being was ?

Mr. Kaufman.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

You made reference to what you read in the paper this morning, and I take it you are referring to the front page story of the Dallas Morning News by Carl Fruend ?

Mr. Kaufman.

By Mr. Fruend.

Mr. Hubert.

Who writes a story concerning the interview of Jack Ruby with

the Chief Justice, is that correct, that's the story ?

Mr. Kaufman.

That's correct.

Mr. Hubert.

I wanted to identify it.

Mr. Kaufman.

Yes, sir; in other words, the story you refer to is a story that purports to be a copyrighted story regarding the testimony of Jack Ruby before the Chief Justice and other members of the Commission or whoever was present, and in which the story relates that Jack said he went down there for a twofold purpose. One was to send a telegram and the "other"-referring to the elimination or assassination or the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I-say that I believe that's inconsistent with the man's personality and with his actions---with the man that I know.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, prior to the commencement of this deposition, we did have some conversation, and in order that the record can be clear on the point, as I now look back, we have covered in the deposition everything that we spoke about prior to the deposition, isn't that correct?

Mr. Kaufman.

That is correct, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Hubert.

So that there is nothing that h.as passed between us that has not been recorded.

Mr. Kaufman.

There is nothing that has passed between us that has not been recorded, and I believe further that we had a further conversation prior to that in which you had indicated, just as you did in the deposition, that we could invoke our privilege, and I had indicated to you that if necessary I would go off the record and give you the information, and you further requested that I do not go off the record because there would have to be other explanations, and we have not gone off the record, that all of our conversations before and after have now been, I believe, correctly reported.

Mr. Hubert.

Thank you very much. You h-ave been very helpful indeed.

Mr. Kaufman.

Well, I hope so.

Mr. Hubert.

We are trying to get the picture of the man.

Mr. Kaufman.

Well, that's what I tried to give you and that is all I can do.

Mr. Hubert.

I might state to you, too, you know that we are far more interested in this man just from the newspaper standpoint. We are building this record so that in a hundred years from now, a person reading it can make sense of it.

Mr. Kaufman.

Well, I wish that I were an artist, but I'm not that articulate, but you see, this is what's wrong, and our good reporter knows that many times when we see these depositions, we say, "Do we sound that bad?" Sometimes a reporter will edit them, but they are not supposed to. I mean, they may make us sound a little better.
I will further say frankly, that the worst part of this is that it is impossible for the Commission when they read all this and try to digest it, to see the people and how they feel, and if they could see the people I think it would be so much more helpful to the Commission.

Mr. Hubert.

Yes; I can understand that. And again, let me say how much we thank you for coming today.

Mr. Kaufman.

All right, thank you.

Danny Patrick McCurdy