You cannot succeed yourself as director, and I was also secretary for a year in between my term.

Mr. Hubert.

What I'm getting at is did you have occasion to observe whether Ruby was active in the normal sense of that word, with respect to religious activities ?

Mr. Kaufman.

Actually, that's what disturbs me, Mr. Hubert. As far as I know, he's never been on any committee, he's never been an usher during the services--these things--so when you use the word "active", he attended services.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he attend regularly--there is a regular service, isn't there?

Mr. Kaufman.

Oh, there are services every day and there are services on
Friday and there are services this morning, and in fact, if I wanted to have been very technical, I could have advised you I didn't want to testify today, that it was in violation of my Sabbath.
Now, whether I myself could be one who could tell you this would be unfair, because frankly, I can't say that I'm in attendance every day, and as a result I believe there is only one person that I know who could give you such an opinion and that would be a person such as a rabbi, a person who is in daily attendance, and I personally am not in that category and therefore I would rather not pass on it.

Mr. Hubert.

There were services on Friday, November 22, the night of the

President's death, and I ask you if you were present at that service?

Mr. Kaufman.

No, sir; I was not present.

Mr. Hubert.

There were also services on Saturday morning, November 23, and I ask you if you were present at those services?

Mr. Kaufman.

No; I wasn't present then. I was supposed to go to Abilene, Tex., to take a deposition on that Saturday and I recall having to cancel my taking of the deposition because I felt so bad about the assassination, but I do recall that I had a plane reservation to leave Dallas at that time.

Mr. Hubert.

All right, will you continue with your comments on Exhibit No. 1 ?

Mr. Kaufman.

All right, getting down to paragraph (3). The statement in regard to trips by Ruby are susbtantially correct. The comment about a visit to Cuba to visit an acquaintance who works in a casino there now, I don't recall that I made any statement that the man worked in a casino. It was my recollection that I felt or thought that the man was supposed to be a gambler, and I think prior to the taking of the deposition, this morning, you and I commented about this when you gave me an opportunity to examine it, and I believe this man's name was McWillie, if I'm not mistaken, but whether he worked at the casino or not, I don't know. I didn't know then and I don't know now. I wouldn't make the statement that he worked in the casino.

Mr. Hubert.

In any case, the only thing you would know about it would be what .Ruby told you ?

Mr. Kaufman.

What Jack had told me, correct.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember when that was?

Mr. Kaufman.

Mr. Hubert, I wouldn't even try to guess. I don't believe Castro was in office at that time. As I recall--of course it might have been right at the time when the takeover took place. I would rather not even try to venture a guess.

Mr. Hubert.

Are you aware from any source, including Ruby, whether he took more than one trip to Cuba ?

Mr. Kaufman.

If he took more than one trip, I am not aware of it. Actually, I couldn't even swear he took this one, except he told me he was going and I assumed he went, but he sent me no postcards, I got no souvenirs or anything that would actually put me in a position where I could tell you definitely he was in Cuba.

Mr. Hubert.

Could you tell us why he would inform you that he was going to Cuba ?

Mr. Kaufman.

I think Jack liked me. I think we discussed a lot of things that were not lawyer-client conversation. I think that over the period of years we discussed many subjects from physical education--taking exercises, to his nightclub business, the changeover from one type of operation to another, and these matters in my opinion don't relate to law, Mr. Hubert.