Mr. Fleming.

with lather on my face. And by reason of the timing, it was between 9:30 and 9:40.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you know Chief Batchelor?

Mr. Fleming.

I had met Chief Batchelor within 30 days of this date.

Mr. Hubert.

Socially or

Mr. Fleming.

No. I went to see Chief Batchelor on official business in that at the time we had been apprised of a city ordinance concerning the licensing of our people in Dallas. The company had operated in Dallas since 1928 without a permit to carry firearms, and being aware of that statute, I made an inquiry to determine if we had to be so licensed. And having determined that we did, we then had the wheels in motion to process our company's license, and I conferred with Chief Batchelor in an effort to clarify insurance and bond problems.

Mr. Hubert.

How long was your telephone conversation with Chief Batchelor?

Mr. Fleming.

I would estimate 3 minutes.

Mr. Hubert.

It was of of course concerning the availability of your armored trucks?

Mr. Fleming.

Chief Batchelor asked if I had been the person, or rather if I were the person who had contacted him with reference to Armored Motor Service, and I stated I had. And he said, "We would like to borrow a truck from you people for the purpose of transporting this prisoner."

Mr. Hubert.

Did you tell him that the truck would be available?

Mr. Fleming.

I told him that the truck, we would be very happy to oblige, but that it would take me sometime to make it available, because I had the problem of determining who had keys and how we could get it.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you indicate to him how long it would be before the truck would be available?

Mr. Fleming.

No; I did not.

Mr. Hubert.

How did you leave the matter then with him on that occasion?

Mr. Fleming.

I told him that I would get started immediately to locate the people who had the keys, and parenthetically I might explain that for security reasons the same person doesn't have .the keys all the time. And I think neither the manager nor the assistant manager had it. In other words, to save time, I told Chief Batchelor we had several sizes of trucks, and asked that he take the measurements of the door and have them ready so that I could call him when I arrived at the terminal, to determine what size truck we should bring to transport the prisoner. And I told him I would call him as soon as I learned how soon we could be there.

Mr. Hubert.

What did you do next?

Mr. Fleming.

I then attempted to call Mr. Hall by telephone, and Mr. Paul Leonard, who is our operations manager for Dallas, by telephone. Neither was in. Then I called Mr. Tom Mastin, Jr., president of Armored Motor Service in Fort Worth, explained the commitment that I had made, and asked if he had any suggestion as to whom I might call to find out who had the keys. He suggested that Mr. Tom James, who is vice president of Armored Motor Service in semiretirement, lived next door to the church that Mr. Hall and Mr. James attended, and suggested that I call Mr. 5ames to get Mr. Hall personally and proceed from there, which I subsequently did.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you call Mr. James and ask him to go over and get Mr. Hall from the church?

Mr. Fleming.

Yes; and he had Mr. Hall call me from the church.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you recall about how long after that Mr. Hall called you in fact?

Mr. Fleming.

It would have been within 5 minutes of my call to Mr. James.

Mr. Hubert.

Then what did you tell Mr. Hall?

Mr. Fleming.

I asked if he knew where the keys were, and he said he did not know. He thought Mr. Ed Dietrich had one set, and he would try to make some calls to find out where the Other set was. I suggested that rather he give me Dietrich's telephone number, and I suggegted that I would call Mr. Dietrich, and for him to get on the phone and try to locate the other keys so that we could find somebody and move quickly.