Mr. Griffin.

Who was that?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Captain O. A. Jones.

Mr. Griffin.

What time would you estimate that was?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin.

How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, or 20 minutes after, something like that.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that time?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were together.

Mr. Griffin.

DO you recall what happened when you got out of the elevator?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you recall who that officer was?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and myself.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, to get some cigars.

Mr. Griffin.

Where did you see him?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Down in the lobby.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, what happened?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are authorized, which was the police officers and the news media.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he tell you anything about what you should do when Oswald came down?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let them get too close to him.

Mr. Griffin.

You formed along one of the walls; didn't you ?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail lobby. Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit No. 5046.]

Mr. Cutchshaw.

This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back inside the jail, and I was right here at this.

Mr. Griffin.

Would you put an "X" there?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I was standing right here by the side of the door.

Mr. Griffin.

All right; now, did you remain there the entire time?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Yes; until after the shooting.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that particular time?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for .us to line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at any particular position. So I
was over here. And there was a bunch of newsmen in this area in here.

Mr. Griffin.

In the jail office?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office except the officers here.

Mr. Griffin.

That is behind the desk?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Right.

Mr. Griffin.

When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, did anybody help you?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and he